What does it mean if you are neurodivergent and working as a consultant? Also, how do consultants best accommodate neurodiversity in the organisations we serve?

For this episode, Phil is joined by Nathan Whitbread and Sarah Castor-Perry. They are both specialists in neurodiversity, and helping workplaces to better understand neurodivergent workforces.

Sarah Castor-Perry’s work as a coach and consultant is with Kernel.

Nathan Whitbread is The Neurodivergent Coach.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Phil Lewis: Neurodivergence. It’s talked about more than ever before, but what does it mean if you’re a consultant who is neurodivergent, and how as a consultant do you best accommodate neurodiversity in the organisations you serve? Welcome to The Consultancy Business Podcast. We are here to champion ethics and excellence in independent consultancy. And this month we are joined by two brilliant coaches and consultants, Nathan Whitbread and Sarah Castor-Perry, both of whom are specialists in neurodivergency. That is, helping neurodivergent people to function better at work and also helping workplaces to understand how to function better. Neurodivergent workforces. I got them on because I was interested to talk about neurodivergency and consulting, what it means for consultants and what it means for the organisations we serve. And it turned out to be one of the most enlightening conversations I think we’ve ever had. I personally learned a huge amount from these two over the course of the time that we spent together, and I’m sure you will do too. So without further ado, here’s my conversation with Nathan and Sarah. Sarah and Nathan, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:19] Sarah Castor-Perry: Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here, Phil.

[00:01:20] Phil Lewis: So I thought we’d start with a bit of background and Sarah, I’m going to come to you first, if that’s okay. So give us a bit of a sense about how you ended up doing the kind of work you now do and any kind of background and context you want to provide about your journey into coaching around neurodivergence and your, you know, your own experience with it.

[00:01:41] Sarah Castor-Perry: So I’ve worked as a consultant for the last 11 years. And whenever I say that, I always get consistently surprised at how it, how on earth it’s been that long. I also trained as a coach a few years ago as well, but it became increasingly obvious over the last kind of year or so after a couple of episodes of burnout. Uh, and I loved the podcast on burnout, by the way, that something about the way that I was working. In kind of big consulting organisations was not working for me and my brain. Uh, and I also had a late diagnosis of ADHD last year. So a lot of things came together to, for me to realize, I’m not sure that I want the next 10 years to look like the last 10 years. So I did a bit of soul searching and stepped away from my nice, secure, permanent employment within consulting and thought; right, I’m going to start up a business that works for me, but also allows me to really focus on the things that I’m super passionate about in terms of the consulting and the coaching work that I do.
So I started Kernel back end of last year, early this year, and it really focuses on the consulting part of the work that I love. So I do a lot of public sector work and then also the coaching side. So I’m now a fully accredited, fully certified coach and a fully trained ADHD coach as well because I recognised that medication wasn’t a journey that I wanted to go down, but I needed some kind of help. And ADHD coaching came to me as an idea and something that was really valuable. So I’m so thankful and grateful to now be able to offer that to others because it can be just transformative work. And I also do some work with businesses cause I’m super passionate about helping organisations. Be more aware and more friendly towards ADHD and neurodivergence as well. So that’s the convoluted journey to where I am now.

[00:03:39] Phil Lewis: So help me understand what ADHD coaching is, just as a sort of follow up.

[00:03:44] Sarah Castor-Perry: For ADHD coaching specifically. It’s about working with people in a way that works for their brains. So a kind of slightly different style of coaching, which was actually something really interesting to learn when I did my training. As an experienced coach already, what I needed to do differently as an ADHD coach, but also working with them on specific ADHD challenges. So the way that I describe it is helping people to understand what their ADHD means for them because, especially if you’re late diagnosed, you might go; Oh, thank you very much. That’s very nice. I know that I have ADHD now. Now what? And people don’t necessarily know; just because you know you have it doesn’t mean that you know how to work with it or exactly how it shows up for you personally in your life, and how you can respond to that. So coaching kind of helps unpick that for people to go; Oh, okay, that’s why I do these things, these are the things that might work for me, and also helping people just be a little bit kinder to themselves. There’s a lot of internalised shame and a lot of internalised… I’m a terrible person, I’m useless, I’m this, I’m that. So it’s kind of helping people reframe those really negative narratives they have about themselves as well.

[00:04:58] Phil Lewis: Nathan, let’s come to you. What’s your story?

[00:04:58] Nathan Whitbread: So I’m sort of a sales business development person by background. But I got involved in coaching really completely by accident because I went into a marketing role and decided to do some qualifications around that and in my new normal sort of gung ho fashion, ended up in a position where I needed to do sort of some essay style kind of assessment, which was something I’d avoided my whole life throughout the whole of university. And it took me to a place where I had, you know, basically had to recognise that I had some quite different ways of thinking and dealing with life. And that took me to a space where I ended up getting a diagnosis initially for dyslexia, which is really helpful because it kind of brought together a lot of useful things in one space. But where that took me next was then to look for some help and support around what needs to be different and what needs to be helpful. So I ended up going to the government Access To Work scheme, was given some coaching and some sort of support, which was… kind of okay. But I think I recognised that it wasn’t enough, and it wasn’t what I really needed. This was probably about 10 years ago now, to give you an idea. So it really got me thinking; I think I can do something better and different here. And that sort of led me into this coaching space. And when I first came into this coaching space, someone spent, I think, about two hours with me saying: this is what you need to do. And off you go. And there were some good outcomes, but for me, they then became this really important thing of; that’s not okay, ‘cause there’s only two people in the room. Well, that doesn’t feel like the right level of oversight, especially for something that can be both transformative, but also can also be quite damaging actually, if it’s not done right. And it’s not person-centred and it’s not about partnership and it’s not about, you know, putting trust in the middle. So that then took me on a bit of a process of, well, what does accreditation look like? So I originally accredited with the ILM doing their level 7 diploma. And I think it was mentoring, coaching, but that wasn’t enough for me either, because that wasn’t enough contact time. So I then went down the ICF route, which led me to a wonderful organisation called 3D Coaching, which not only transformed my coaching approach, but also I think transformed quite a lot of the way I look at conversation and communication with this just massive call to make stuff super simple and human-focused.

[00:07:31] Phil Lewis: Those of us who are consultants, I guess we’ve all been brought up (if we’re any good) to understand that we need to be able to work with different personalities, different mindsets, different belief systems, different cultural backgrounds, different life experiences, all of that kind of stuff. And I guess we’ve all — or a lot of us — have grown up in a world in which we have understood that being able to work with diversity (in the kind of proper sense of the word diversity as I’ve just defined it) is really important to success. What I would love just to examine with you both is; what is different about encountering neurodivergent audiences, versus what it means just to work in situations where we’ve had to generally acknowledge that there’s a wide diversity of individuals and a wide diversity of approaches, background, beliefs, all that kind of thing.

[00:08:33] Nathan Whitbread: Firstly, I’d say, I don’t think there is a lot of difference because actually difference is difference. I think it’s also good to talk about terminology because this space is full of language that different people mean very different things when they use the same language. So to start with the word neurodiversity, actually neurodiversity means all of us, because we all think slightly differently, but some of us think slightly more differently. And that’s where you get into neurospicy, neurodivergent, neurodistinct. I think the heart of it, though, is asking… because we’re talking about hidden stuff here that’s not normally visible. It may be visible in someone’s communication, but it wouldn’t necessarily be visible if you met them face to face. So asking what’s useful is really helpful. So for example, something that comes up for me quite a lot is people will say, I’ve got X, Y, and Z conditions going on. And the thing that has really struck me is the question that should always come back is that’s brilliant. What does that mean for our communication? What does that mean for the way we’re going to work? What needs to be different? What needs to be the same? And sometimes they just needed to tell you. I think the other thing that’s really important here, similar to other pieces of work, say, for example, around race and that sort of difference, quite often we focus on the individual bit, i.e. making adaptations in the small around that particular individual, whilst ignoring the corporate and the universal stuff that causes issues. I think that there has often been an over-focus on a sticking plaster approach that says John’s turned up, John’s got issues, we’re going to sort John out, and we’re going to ignore all the sort of institutional stuff that’s put John in this really difficult position. John is a fictional character by the way, just for the record, but there are many people who might associate with John. And I think that is the key bit. Actually, this is another movement that’s saying, actually, we need to treat people as human beings. We need to challenge the structural stuff we have in our organisations and our consultancies, the idea that that’s just the way things have been done round here isn’t good enough. We need to challenge it and ask why. And it might be for absolutely brilliant reasons. And that might be great, or it might be because actually that’s the way we did it four years ago. And it worked really well then, but it does not fit the purpose now, but no one was talking about it.

[00:11:09] Sarah Castor-Perry: Just kind of going back to what you were talking about earlier, Nathan, about opening the conversation with a coaching client, that contracting is so important. And I think that’s the same here. It’s that; how do we create a relationship that works for both of us, or between the consultant and the group and whatever that looks like. So that kind of early. And for anyone not familiar with contracting as coaching terminology, it doesn’t mean literally putting a contract on paper of, like, we’re going to sign up to agreeing this together. It’s the process at the beginning of a coaching relationship, and at the beginning of a coaching session, to say; you know, how are you showing up today? What do you need from me today? How do we work best together as coach and coachee and kind of co-creating a relationship together. So I think that applies absolutely in this scenario with a client, but I think I’d also echo the individual versus organisational level as well. Cause that’s certainly been my experience that there’s real variability in terms of; you can have some really great stuff going on at the individual level and individuals being very accommodating and flexible, but actually the structures in an organisation are making those accommodations actually really challenging.

[00:12:29] Nathan Whitbread: The other thing about this newer diversity space is that co-occurrence is the rule rather than the exception. And that is such an important thing because, you know, Sarah was sort of sharing, she’s done some specific work around ADHD coaching, but we know that there’s a high probability that individuals that present with ADHD traits are likely to have autistic traits or dyslexic traits. So we have to be super-careful about the labelling bit and sometimes people label themselves unhelpfully and sometimes others label unhealthily. And I just think that’s an important thing to hold as we talk about spaces.

[00:13:01] Phil Lewis: I think it’s a great point. I mean, wanting to be conscious around language, linguistic choices, wanting to be conscious around, you know, as you rightly say, co-occurrence and all that kind of stuff, that feels like the essence of what you’ve both just been talking about, actually, which is; if we want to call it diversity, whatever language you want to put on it, what you both just talked about very eloquently, I think, is the work to recognise the uniqueness and the innate dignity of the individual. And I love what you both had to say about… actually, that just starts with the question, doesn’t it? You know, and the question might be, how do you like to be worked with. You know, something like that feels like a good question. And I guess my experience over the years is that the asking of that question is the most important thing, in a way. But I am interested by another theme that came out in what you both shared, which is this question of individual responsibility versus collective and corporate responsibility. And it seems to me that the conversations around neurodiversity, conversations around diversity more generally, the conversation we’re having on the podcast episode about burnout, are really conversations which are about a negotiation there, a negotiation between the individual or a collection of individuals or a kind of workforce as a whole through the lens of its values and employers, corporates, you know, the business world, if we want to abstract it to that level. And it’s a negotiation around where the responsibility actually sits. So if we’re talking about somebody who has a specific condition or somebody who has a other kind of health-related issue, somebody who may be going through a difficult time from a life stage point of view, or indeed somebody who has had difficult historic life experiences, where does the individual responsibility to show up and lead themselves through that and to create the conditions for themselves in which they can succeed, begin and end? And where does the corporate responsibility to create the environment in which those individuals can prosper, begin and end? And that seems to me to be central to the whole sort of discussion and negotiation here. And I’m absolutely sure — although challenge me, cause I’m here for that — that there’s no one-size-fits-all answer on that. But I’m interested in your reflections as coaches about how you help people to think that through, and how you help your neurodiverse clients to think through where they need to lead themselves versus they need to be much better in advocating for requesting from their organisations.

[00:16:01] Sarah Castor-Perry: I would totally agree that it’s a very person-by-person kind of situation, but I’m also fundamentally of the belief that organisations have the responsibility to create the environment for their staff to thrive, regardless of whatever type of diversity or background they have. So just against that context, I would say that… I’ve totally lost my train of thought. This is the problem with ADHD. I had a thought and it’s gone. This is good that I can think about this. Oh, that’s it. So one thing that’s important to note, kind of going back to your point, Nathan, about terminology is important. There’s also an important aspect around the fact that ADHD and autism, and various other conditions, they’re recognised under the 2010 Equality Act as a Disability and therefore employers have a responsibility to provide reasonable adjustments, which is the terminology. So accommodations for those people. So as a coach working with people, and this is why I always try to start with; how does ADHD show up for you? Because there’s, you know, if you’ve met one person with ADHD, you’ve met one person with ADHD, same with autism, same with anything else. So not everybody expresses their neurodivergence in the same way. So step number one, understand what it means for you. Step number two, what does that mean for you in a work environment? Some people will struggle with some things and not others. And therefore what is appropriate for you to ask for as a reasonable adjustment to your organisation? That might be accommodations like providing noise-cancelling headphones. It might be allowing you to have a specific desk in the world of hot-desking post-covid. They might say, right, okay, this is your desk and you have a special chair that allows you to be more comfortable because that helps to stop you from being distracted, that kind of thing. So helping people understand what their neurodivergence means for them and therefore helping them to self-advocate to their organisations is one thing. I think a lot of organisations are much better at having a process for responding to those kinds of advocacy now, in terms of being willing to accommodate those, but I do think that there is still a stigma about self-disclosure. I was having a conversation with an HR director a couple of weeks ago of an organisation. And she was saying; we have had a couple of people disclose, and we’re trying to make adjustments for them, but I’m pretty sure there’s more people out there who are not self-disclosing. So I suppose the challenge is at that individual level, even once you are aware of what you want to ask for, there may still be a corporate environment that persists that makes it really hard for people to speak up and self-advocate. So when that exists, I think there needs to be a conversation with organisations, which is what I try to do with some of the workshops that I do, is that organisations may not be aware of ADHD and neurodivergence and how that might show up for people and therefore what they can do differently. And once they know that, then they’re more likely to say; Ooh, actually, you know what our processes around recruitment or performance management or other kinds of processes in the organisation really don’t support this. We need to do something fundamentally different.

[00:19:32] Nathan Whitbread: That Equality Act is key. And the thing with the Equality Act is, basically, to be covered by the Equality Act you have to have a condition that will affect you or has affected you for a minimum of 12 months — and everything we’ve talked about here is neurodevelopmental. Though stuff can look like it, so PTSD, sometimes menopause, sometimes other bits can present that look a bit like this and that’s okay, by the way. And we don’t need to stick into nice little boxes, but I think the way we approach it should still be exactly the same in terms of that conversational approach. I think this idea of ‘reasonable’ is really important as well. So the Equality Act talks about three components to ‘reasonable’. The first bit is that it’s got to actually solve the problem. And this is a really interesting issue because there’s quite a lot of cookie cutter approaches here. I.e. I mean, welcome, Sarah, you’ve got X, you need Y. Yeah, but that’s not true for me. So there needs to be something that’s more conversational. And also we don’t often know what’s going to solve the problem till we test it. So I think there has to be an element of project, and in terms of saying; well, let’s bring something in, let’s put it in a space where we can actually review it and see if it works and be brave enough to change it if it doesn’t. Because sometimes there’s a whole load of guilt and shame attached to ‘you’ve given me this stuff, it doesn’t work.’ And we get to this space where the solution becomes part of the problem. And it’s kind of like the Karpman drama triangle, we’ve just turned from rescuer to punisher, you know, and it’s just like, ‘what are we doing?!?’ craziness. It’s also important that, you know, that the changes that we’re asked… these reasons would actually fit within the organisational context. So one of the things I’ve noticed quite a lot is you get stuff suggested and put in, that means that the individual’s supported, but they can’t collaborate with their colleagues effectively. And that’s a problem, I would argue. So that kind of platform interdependence really matters. It really matters that the stuff could be supported by IT, and they’re not going; Do you know what? We’re going to wash our hands of it and you sort out this stuff. Because you know, if you’re a paid consultant, the last thing you want to be is a technology whizz trying to sort out your own assistive tech, because that’s not your job. And the final bit is the cost of the adjustments also in line with what the organisation can afford and this, this programme support. But generally I’d say most of the stuff that’s reasonable is actually very affordable. And it’s often the actual structural changes that make the biggest difference, I would argue, as well.

[00:21:52] Phil Lewis: I’m so struck listening to you both because Sarah, where you started, you said, I fundamentally believe that every organisation has a responsibility to create the conditions in which its employees can thrive. And then where the conversation immediately went, and rightly, not to criticise in any sense — where the conversation immediately when was the Equality Act, reasonable accommodations, and we’re in a conversation about what’s the bare minimum that employers need to do, right? And, and yet, the spirit of the inquiry is actually way above and beyond ‘what’s the bare minimum that employers need to do’. You know, my area of professional interest, I guess, is ultimately exactly what you guys have said, which is how do we create work environments in which everybody feels able to perform at their natural best. Whatever natural best means. And so that question about responsibility, it seems to me isn’t just about where does responsibility sit in the context of me as an individual, how I advocate for myself and what the employer needs to do for me just at the level of the bare minimum. There’s a much higher standard, is there not, that we need to be aiming for here, which is how do we actually create the conditions in which our neurodiverse colleagues, in the context of this conversation, can succeed and really add all that they are capable of adding. And I’m just really struck by that kind of tension, I guess, in the response and your reflections you’ve got around that.

[00:23:43] Sarah Castor-Perry: I think it’s really interesting. I was listening to your burnout episode and the guest talking about how ‘wellbeing’ can be a sort of sticking plaster, a sort of additive thought for organisations where actually the underlying culture and everything else is actually creating environments where people are not going to be doing well. And I think the danger with reasonable adjustments is that they could be seen as something similar in the sense that; Oh, I’m ticking this box against, you know, providing yoga sessions, or, you know, I’m ticking the box of providing noise-cancelling headphones. But it doesn’t address the underlying culture of the organisation, which is; Okay, there’s an always-on culture. There is, you know, the way that… a previous organisation that I worked in actually did some great stuff. So they had a specified neurodivergence diagnostic pathway through their private medical insurance, which was how I was able to get diagnosed, which is incredible. And they did have a great HR process about technology and noise-cancelling headphones and things like that, but the prevailing; oh, you always need to be available, and messages will pop up constantly, and you need to be responding to things immediately here, there, and everywhere. That kind of culture doesn’t align with the reasonable adjustments. But I think the difficulty with turning the tanker… the inertia of turning the tanker of something like culture can be thought of as; wow, this is a really big challenge… may be too big a challenge for us to solve and actually really involves us really taking a look at ourselves as an organisation and organisational culture and processes and structures. And when I say culture, I don’t mean like; Oh, look, we’ve written some values on the wall and that’s what we pretend to be. It’s what is the lived experience, the daily lived experience of your staff and what does that really mean? I think that can feel like too big a challenge for a lot of organisations, so they kind of do the nice little sticking plaster things. And that’s not to say that those things aren’t helpful because if you didn’t have them, it would be way worse. But I think the word tension that you used there, Phil, I think is accurate because it’s a difficult one for organisations. And I think the other thing that I was just thinking when Nathan was talking earlier was when we talk about those reasonable adjustments, I think what we’re talking about are quite sort of tactical things to put in place rather than day-to-day ways of working adjustments. And I think that can be a real challenge for any organisation, but particularly consultancies, where you may expect your staff to be equally good across data analysis, working with clients, working across all of the different facets of what it means to be a good consultant. But some people may be better at one of those things than others because of a neurodivergent condition and may excel and far exceed the capability of other people in one area, but they’re still expected to work across everything. And can you reasonably expect a consultancy to provide that adjustment for those people? Maybe not. So it comes back to that word of what’s reasonable.

[00:26:57] Nathan Whitbread: But it’s also this element of psychological safety around it as well. Do people actually really feel included and able to be recognised and seen for who they are, not just another special person that makes your EDI stats look nice. And are you included in terms of the way you learn? So learner safety. And are you included in terms of the way you contribute to the organisation? And actually, are you safe enough to then challenge what needs to be different? The other thing that you’ve mentioned there a couple of times, Phil, which I think is really important to pull out is this idea of self-advocacy. Living with this stuff is often really challenging. People have made it to quite extraordinary places, not because they’ve been supported to be there, but because they’ve fought and done the hard miles, often masking at work to present something that is quite different to who they are so they can get on and conform in sometimes quite toxic environments, though they may look quite lovely on the surface, the toxicity sits there in terms of some expectations. And often diagnosis takes people to a space of recognising some of that stuff. And I think you touched on this, Sarah, you know, there’s grief, there’s all sorts of things going on, which are really big. You recognise all that stuff, and I get the fact people are smart, particularly in this kind of consultancy space and they get that. But that’s still a lot to do to then have to self-advocate for yourself. And I think coming back to this responsibility idea, if we are truly an organisation that wants to be the best for ourselves, our people and our clients, we have to notice what’s going on. And that doesn’t mean diagnosing, that means having a conversation that says; I wonder what we need to do differently to support you to be your most effective. And sometimes as you were talking about it… so I was just thinking, it’s not the only industry, do you know what, that does this? I mean, I do a lot of work with the Church of England. Vicars, believe it or not, have to wear lots and lots of hats. They’re expected to do everything. And yet they’re often very good at one thing, and other things are tricky. They build team and it kind of works. Yeah. But any organisation where you’re held up as sort of the John Wayne style, you can solve everything to do everything, I don’t know if that’s a useful image or not. It’s challenging. But to call it out and recognise what people are really good at so they can amplify their strengths and what they find more tricky and support them to manage that. And sometimes that’s about job design and job, and scoping what’s going on, so people can really perform at their best. And sometimes it’s about doing things slightly differently, but I think that’s the real challenge here. And, you know, you’re absolutely right what you’re saying that the Equality Act is the backstop, but the important thing is that we never forget that the backstop’s there. That doesn’t mean that we in any way want to be scratching the very bottom of what’s barely legally okay. But if that’s our framework to start from, it’s a useful space to build on and it stops anyone then saying; well, you don’t deserve that. Oh, that’s not something we should be talking about. I would argue anyway.

[00:30:02] Phil Lewis: I think that’s a really valid point. And I guess my question around self-advocacy was ultimately rooted in a sense of wanting this dialogue that we’re having even on this podcast to be representative of the kind of dialogue that I certainly bear witness to happening in organisations and I believe needs to happen with organizations and within organisations on topics like this. So I think the pushback is also really well made on that, and again you come back to a theme of this conversation, which is ultimately a theme of empathy. Which is, you know, as you rightly say, when somebody has received, maybe a diagnosis later in life, that is going to bring up an awful lot of stuff for them and then having to go, okay, so now there’s mountains behind mountains here, I now need to get out there and fight my own fight again, kind of thing. Yeah. That’s a lot to ask and it is absolutely right, it seems to me, that we put the challenge to organisations to meet employees where they’re at. I mean, look, all organisations trend towards tyranny in the end, all organisations trend towards exploitation. It is simply because of how they’re designed, capitalist imperatives, all of that kind of thing, the purpose of regulation, the purpose of discussions around culture. The purpose of conversations like this, I think in some sense is to provide a bulwark against some of those forces and it’s absolutely vital work in my view. On a more tactical level, then, help me understand some things. So I’m a consultant. I walk into client organisations with one job, which is to try and help them. And I do quite a lot of work with teams actually. And I do that in both of my practices and one of the things that I’m always interested in is how do I bring the best out of the people that I happen to be sat in the room with. Now, one thing we do a lot more at Corporate Punk actually, is we create a lot of quiet space and time for thought in the meetings that we’re in. So one of the things that can be really surprising if you come to one of our workshops is the amount of time we ask our clients to sit in silence. And we do that actually, because if you spend 10 or 15 minutes asking somebody to think about what it is they’re going to say before a conversation starts, or to digest a piece of information that they’ve received, or whatever, you’re actually far more likely to get a high quality conversation. It also supports introverts, right? So people who… are a little bit less by nature forthcoming, and will take more time to process, and all of that kind of thing. I’m not after sorts of, you know, really simple sort of 101-style tactics here necessarily. What I do find my interest piqued around is this, which is; if I’m walking into a group full of people, you guys have both mentioned that there can be real challenges around self-disclosure, which I have a huge amount of empathy for in other contexts, and I’m trying to create the conditions to succeed. And there may be either known neurodivergent members of the team that I’m working with, or perhaps those for whom those conditions aren’t recognised. Is there anything that I can and should be doing as a consultant to try and create the conditions for those people to succeed in the context of the work that I’m doing with them?

[00:33:37] Nathan Whitbread: I think the key thing, Phil, is you’ve got to ask. So I do some group facilitation myself and different context. We have to ask… and I think there’s also something you mentioned silence and space, but for some people, that’s their worst nightmare. So for some people who’ve got ADHD traits, for example, sitting still is just like their worst nightmare in the world. I mean, I’m standing up at the moment, so I don’t walk out of the room because I want to wander around. And I can see Sarah’s got her wonderful — is that okay to mention Sarah? Sorry. Just smile if it is — so Sarah is utilising a beautiful squidgy thing because actually, giving permission for that to be okay, I think, it’s really important actually. To say, it’s okay to move, you know, we’re going to have some silent space, for example, and some of you may not feel comfortable with that. So here’s another space you can go to if you need to, because you also, you’ve got external processing as well, where some people, their silence is actually about talking. Because that’s how they process. So what I’m not saying is what you’re doing is wrong. But what I’m saying is that there’s something about giving permission and asking, saying we’re doing this, and this is the why, because once we know the why, our answer to the why might be slightly different. And I think recognising that is really, really key. There’s also this thing about, you know, lots of people won’t even know they’ve got some of this stuff going on. Because often it doesn’t come out until things happen that challenge us, that puts us in a space where we want to inquire. And that’s for lots of people that’s around children, actually. As our children get identified with stuff, suddenly a penny drops, things get noticed and you know, other things ensue. So people don’t have to have a label to recognise they need difference, but making it okay to have difference, obviously within a realm of what’s safe for the group and not disruptive to the group is really, really important.

[00:35:30] Phil Lewis: I like that, Nathan. I’m personally more than comfortable with you telling me that what I’m doing is wrong, by the way. I think it’s a really helpful build and it’s something that I would like to take straight away back into the practice is; how do we open up that for discussion and how do we give permission for expression to happen in different ways in moments like that? I think it’s a great challenge and I think it’s a great response to that question. Sarah, your thoughts?

[00:35:57] Sarah Castor-Perry: Yeah, I think I totally agree with what Nathan’s saying, and I really love the use of the word permission, providing, you know, we talked about that psychological safety in an organisational perspective, that’s what you want to provide when you’re coming in, facilitating a workshop, working with a team, whatever it is, is you want people to feel like they can express themselves however they need to. So, you know, in a workshop, like, look, if anyone needs to get up, move around, do whatever you need to do, that’s totally fine. One thing that became really obvious to me… I’ve worked with a couple of fellow neuro, well, quite a few fellow neurodivergent coaches, in various learning guises, generally, adjustments for neurodivergent people tend to actually also make things better for everybody else as well. So, things like providing slides and written instructions. For a neurodivergent person, particularly, let’s say someone with ADHD with extremely poor working memory, like myself, if someone gives me verbal instructions for something to do in a workshop, I will immediately forget them and not do it properly. Whereas if someone has put a slide up saying, this is what you need to do, I’m like, that’s brilliant. Anybody else in that room who isn’t necessarily neurodivergent might also find that super useful. And I used to think about it in the terms of extroversion and introversion, of the people that do really well in a workshop are the extroverts, the ones who want to give their thoughts, they want to talk, they want to be, you know, out in the world. The introverts, who have just as much skin in the game, to use a horrible buzzword phrase, just as much interest, you know, just as much to say, just as much right to contribute. They may not feel as comfortable contributing in the same way as an extrovert would. So often rather than saying; Oh, can you just like blurt out your answers in a workshop? I’ll say, right. take a couple of seconds and everybody write down some thoughts on Post-It notes. And then… ‘cause it gives the introverts space to do that thinking themselves, so kind of what you were saying, Phil, and then allows people to, to share those. I think that also works really well for people who may feel less comfortable speaking out in a group. So there are neurodivergent people who that feels really overwhelming. So that kind of exercise can work. I also find something I really recommend is breakout groups. So if you’re in a workshop with like 20 people, some people like myself, very, extroverted, loves to talk. I will, I’ll just put my hand up and I’ll start talking. Whereas other people may not feel comfortable expressing themselves as part of a wider group, whereas if you break into smaller groups, like twos or threes, to share your thoughts as a two or a three, they can then get their voice in that conversation, in a safer way. And then maybe someone else from that three feels more comfortable sharing that in a plenary with the rest of the group. So it’s little adjustments like that, you know, introversion, neurodivergence, whatever it is, like people are all different and some people feel more or less comfortable in those situations. So I think it’s about recognising that there are differences of thought and trying to just accommodate those generally. And those often work just really well for everybody.

[00:39:15] Phil Lewis: So if I’m an independent consultant and I may have had a diagnosis of neurodivergence fairly recently, or in the past, and I’m still working out what that means in terms of my own practice and how I best build my practice and how I best show up for my clients and all the other stuff that goes along with running an independent consultancy. I’d love just to hear any reflections you’ve got on the value of coaching in that specific context, because I’ve met many, many independent consultants over the years, and some of them I know have, you know, struggled post-diagnosis or have been in some sense, maybe undiagnosed, but have been concerned in some sense about how they are showing up in their practices. And I, one of the things I take great heart in actually from talking to both of you is the fact that there is really, really good quality professional support out there. So I just love to hear any reflections you’ve got about the kind of journeys that particularly those of us who are working as consultants can actually go on when supported by coaching in this space.

[00:40:29] Nathan Whitbread: Coaching’s part of it, but I mean, the other part that can be really useful is something that’s called a workplace needs assessment, which you can get through Access To Work, or you can get privately, um, that’s something I sometimes do, if that’s, if that’s useful to mention. And that’s about actually looking at the whole picture and saying, well, actually, what’s going on here? What are the challenges? What are the strengths? And what may be useful with some of these reasonable adjustments? And these reasonable adjustments, by the way, coaching is part of that, and it fits. I would always argue with coaching, it’s so important, wdeal with what’s present and real. And I would, I would always encourage anyone that’s looking at this space to be wary of programmatical approaches. You know, to be conscious because actually just because you’ve got these traits doesn’t mean the thing you need to work on. It’s a lens to look through not a label to be worn, is where I’m coming from. You may be dealing with a crazy accountant and an awkward client. The fact you’ve got ADHD traits or autistic traits is the lens you’re looking through as you work it out. So someone that’s kind of got an appreciation of how that works is useful, but ultimately the thing is unique because it’s you and it’s your specialness along with this interesting bet. So having someone that’s comfortable enough to hold the space for you to work out is the key bit. I think the other bit that’s so important with coaching is that when we’re done, we’re done. And what I mean by that is; let’s just do enough to help to support the thinker — and I love that language of ‘thinker’ because we’re all thinkers, aren’t we — the thinker to move forwards. Because if they’d move forwards, that’s the job of the coach to support them to move forwards, period. I think so often what we don’t want to create is that kind of walking stick kind of relationship where the coach is seen as someone that the thinker has to turn to every time something goes a bit wrong, but much more someone who’s able to create them the space for them to think about what needs to be different, take some action, test it in experimental place and then move forwards.

[00:42:26] Sarah Castor-Perry: I would agree with that. I think the thing that’s really… I don’t know if you would agree with this, Nathan… is that I find that being a coach makes me a better consultant. Being a consultant is fundamentally incompatible with being a coach because as a consultant, I solve other people’s problems. As a coach, I provide the space for them to solve their own problems. So there’s a real danger if you’re an experienced consultant of when you are then in your coaching space of wanting to step in and be like; Oh, have you tried this? Have you thought about this? And suggesting things. So I really have to self manage as a coach to be like; I’m wearing my coaching hat today. I’m not going to solve your problem. I’m just going to be here to provide space for you. So I think there’s definitely some real, I mean… I’m a huge advocate for coaching, not just because I am a coach, but I’ve had a lot of coaching in my time and it has fundamentally been transformative for me as well. So I’m a big believer in it. I just wanted to pick up on your reference to Access To Work, Nathan, and just kind of expand a little bit more on that. This is a government backed, sort of initiative, I guess, where anyone can apply for access to work funding. It’s essentially funding of up to £66,000 per person to help people to remain in work. Now, that can be due to a physical disability, neurodivergence, so ADHD and autism, various other things, um, is included within that. And, it’s quite a lengthy process, but anyone can go and apply for it. And like Nathan said, one of the things that might come back is that you can have some of your coaching funded by that work. It can also fund adaptations for your home and office. And this is available to self-employed people, so independent consultants and full-time employed people, you, it doesn’t matter who you are, you can absolutely apply for it. So it’s something that can be really helpful to anyone. So that’s one thing. But I think, for me, the value of coaching, particularly when you’re thinking about someone who is a neurodivergent independent consultant… let’s use that as quite a specific example… and independent consultants generally, is; there’s a real feast or famine to independent consultancy. Sometimes you are incredibly busy. Sometimes you’re not busy at all. And particularly as a neurodivergent person, that can be quite challenging. So for ADHD, we often talk about INCUP, the interest-based nervous system, where we are motivated in different ways to neurotypical people. So you’ve got interest, novelty, challenge, urgency, and passion. So INCUP. The things that we’re motivated by. And it can be really tricky to self-motivate when you’ve got nothing going on. So when you’re kind of in fallow periods between projects, it can be really hard to motivate yourself, and coaching to help you understand how you respond to those situations can be really, really helpful. One of the main things that people don’t often talk about, with particularly ADHD, but other neurodivergence, is emotional regulation. People often talk about, you know, the hyperactivity, the working memory, the kind of inattention, those sorts of things. But actually emotional dysregulation is one of the main challenges. And actually, certainly when I completed my psychoeducation calls after my diagnosis, every single person on that call said; Oh yeah, the emotional dysregulation is one of the hardest things to deal with. So if you imagine that dysregulation where it’s essentially you kind of, you feel everything so much more intensely and high highs, crashing lows. You have a thing called rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is painful response to perceived rejection, not necessarily real rejection, but you read into things and perceive rejection. And then you have like an incredible visceral reaction to it. So imagine you are an independent consultant, you’ve put out a few proposals to people and people aren’t responding to you, you’re in a fallow period, that emotional dysregulation might overwhelm you and make you think, right, I’m useless, no one wants to work with me, I’ll never work again, and then it all just comes crashing down. So I think coaching to help people become more aware of how that shows up for them and then helping them to say, okay, what are the things that I can do to help me get out of that is really valuable.

[00:46:55] Nathan Whitbread: Access To Work also provides something called a personal assistant or support worker. I’ve got one, and they help me manage stuff to give balance, which is really useful because again, it’s about recognising what you’re great at and what are the things you find tricky. The other bit I was just going to add in sometimes I think in a coaching conversation, it is perfectly okay to change hats with permission.

[00:47:16] Sarah Castor-Perry: I would agree. Yes, I would agree with that.

[00:47:19] Phil Lewis: Just to close us out, in one sentence, both of you, as people who are working to help organisations better, what is the one thing that we should be supporting organisations, as consultants, to do in order to empower their neurodivergent team members?

[00:47:40] Nathan Whitbread: Have more effective conversations.

[00:47:42] Sarah Castor-Perry: Really look at the lived experience environment they are creating in terms of culture and psychological safety.

[00:47:52] Phil Lewis: Nathan, Sarah, thank you for coming on the podcast.

[00:47:55] Sarah Castor-Perry: Thanks Phil!

[00:47:58] Phil Lewis: A huge thanks to Nathan and Sarah for what I hope you’ll agree was a really interesting and enlightening conversation. Both of them are excellent coaches and consultants. I’ve heard firsthand from people that they’ve worked with, just how valuable their insights and their support can be. We will leave links to their websites in the show notes if you’d like to learn more about their work.

If you’re interested in what it means to consult with the highest standards of ethics and the highest standards of excellence and build a practice that can stand the test of time, then you might be interested in the course we’ve recently launched with our partners at TBD+. It’s called Advance and the basic idea is it’s all the street fighting skills that you need in order to be able to practice consulting at the highest level and to do so for years and years and years with a practice that will continue to thrive no matter what the world has to throw at it. We’ll put links in the show notes, but if you’re interested, you can head on over to TBD+, take a look at Advance, and sign up there. In the meantime, as always, The Consultancy Business will be back on the first Monday of every month. If you find value in these episodes, as always, we would greatly appreciate you liking and subscribing and even leaving a review for us on Apple Podcasts. Every single one of those helps. Please feel free also to share this episode or any of the other episodes in the back catalogue with any independent consultant that you think would find value in them. That’s all for now. See you soon.

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