What clients value most in consultants, and how to set up any independent consulting relationship for success.

Phil Lewis speaks with Nationwide’s head of media relations Sara Batchelor, and Scott Williams, chief product officer at German scale-up KUGU Home.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Phil Lewis: In this very first episode of The Consultancy Business Podcast, we start to explore what clients really want from their relationships with independent consultants. My name is Phil Lewis, and it’s great to have you with us. Arguably the most important people in a consultant’s life are the clients. So in this episode, and in episodes to come, we’ll be looking at what they value most in their consultants, and how to set any consulting relationship up for success. Call it starting as you mean to go on.

[00:00:36] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Having a contract with each other to be brutally honest. Consultants can fall into the trap of just agreeing with everything you say, and [are] slightly tentative of actually telling the brutal truth, which is, as a client, what you really want and the most valuable thing.

[00:00:57] Phil Lewis: That is Sara Batchelor, Head of Media Relations for Nationwide Building Society. This podcast is all about what good independent consulting looks like and how to do it well. We’ll be hearing more on this subject from Sara shortly. But our first guest is ex-Google, and has had a long career in digital tech and innovation. He’s now working with one of Germany’s most promising scale-ups and has a very sharp focus on getting things done.

[00:01:26] Scott Williams – KUGU Home: My name is Scott Williams. I am currently Chief Product Officer at KUGU Home, which is an energy data platform based in Berlin. I have spent the last 25 years working in the digital space; be that in a commercial capacity, marketing, growth, product, and tech. If you want to know what’s going on, get your hands dirty, jump in, look, get involved in some of the processes, talk to people, understand how they feel. I’ll give you an example. I worked for a very large agency and we did a big customer experience strategy piece of work, and I remember the lead exec on that piece of work used to kind of go; what the customer is after is the ‘thud moment’. And I was like, what’s the thud moment? He said, well, we just, we produce a huge amount of paper and we drop it on the table and it just goes thud. And I was like, yeah, but that has absolutely no business value or impact. It’s just a representation of the fact that we didn’t do our job properly. I think there’s, there’s too many, well, there were too many people kind of reflecting what’s going on in the business, right? And that’s like half the problem. It’s like, well, what are you doing to solve it? What have you done and are doing to solve it? Because problems on their own is just pointless without a solution or a plan.

[00:02:44] Phil Lewis: The point about the thud on the table moment is it kind of mistakes quantity of work for quality of work. And it mistakes demonstration of industry for quality of outcome. Some of the most impactful work I’ve done might ultimately have resulted in one page of A4 or three boards or five PowerPoint charts. And I think, you know, any organisation, any leadership team, any CEO, whatever, that’s worth their salt is someone who can look at that, intuit the quality of thinking and understanding behind it, perceive the expertise, and engage with the individual or individual consultants who’ve done that work in a way then that allows the organisation to derive value from it. I suppose I’m really interested in; over the years, have you met lots of consultants who work that way, or do you think that the big thud moment style consultants are still more common than they should be?

[00:03:47] Scott Williams – KUGU Home: I think culturally, there are more and more people who want to get quote-unquote shit done, you know. I think ultimately because of the speed in which things are changing, and consumer habits are changing and how things are fragmenting, everyone’s kind of trying to jump on that bandwagon of consulting and helping, you know, business X become more Y or X, Y or X squared Y, or whatever that those outcomes are. So I think because ultimately, I think everything is moving faster. So I think the old way of, you know, we’ll go in your business for two months and then we’ll give you a large document that kind of lands on the table, which everyone goes; Oh, great. And then no one actually ever reads, is a dying breed. You know, cause I’m very much a pragmatist, right? So, you know, I kind of, as the Buddha say, if you’re, if you’re hungry, you eat, if you’re thirsty, you drink. I worked at Google years ago and I remember a very simple thing, that Eric Schmidt said once, which is like, if something is broken, fix it.

[00:04:56] Phil Lewis: Yes. I can feel the consultants who don’t like to work that way, howling in the background, like your dogs, Scott.

[00:05:01] Scott Williams – KUGU Home: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But it’s about integrity. If you go in there, you can see a problem and the problem can be, you know, a data problem, it can be a software solution problem, it can be a political problem, it can be a person problem. But you just have to confront it. And try and do something about it. And sometimes you need people around you that can kind of come in and augment that. I’ll give you an example, 2012. I did some work for a very well known, very old, established geospatial government agency arm, I mean, everyone will know what that is, but I’m just not going to name them. I was approached by them and they asked me, can I come in and talk to them about mobile and social media, which is a coded message of; Oh, my god, we don’t know what’s going on, but we’ve got a feeling it’s got something to do with mobile and social media. And so I came in for a week and said, I’ll just come in and I’ll write your report and some action points. And then I think after three or four hours, I kind of went to my contact and said; I don’t need to… like, I know what the problem is, but you’re just not going to like it. And so I’m going to charge you for a day, write you a little paper. The paper basically said you are competing against Google. You have three people in your web department. You have already lost. You know, so it’s the simplicity sometimes of the solution you provide too, right? It’s like, not over complicate it. And the dog, by the way, is agreeing in the background.

[00:06:44] Phil Lewis: There you’ve also talked to the idea of asking forgiveness, not permission, which it seems to me is about fearlessness. And I guess where I connect back to on fearlessness, and I think maybe the secret or one of the secrets to building the consultancy nobody else can, is actually about how grounded you are in the value that you bring, and it’s about how grounded you are in your expertise. And for me, the reason why the one pager that says; ‘you’re competing with Google, you’ve got three people in this department, you’ve already lost’ connects is because what is shining through is a depth of knowledge and expertise that you cannot hide in that in that acuity of analysis, right? So it seems to me that it comes down to, as consultants, or at least part of it comes down to as consultants, are we really grounded in the expertise that we bring? Because if we are, trust becomes less of an issue. Speed of impact becomes less of an issue because actually you will do only what is necessary to get you the result. Impact itself obviously as a direct consequence of having expertise applied well, and then fearlessness, I think, is probably a practice that grows with time. Because the other thing that happens with fearlessness, I would think, is that as you end up getting more and more proof points of your expertise — demand being a proof point of your expertise as well, more and more people want to work with you — it becomes easier to just call the stuff that doesn’t work because a) you don’t need the work in the first place, maybe because you’ve got so much other stuff going on and b) you’re actually not really willing to have your expertise challenged and your time wasted through the idea of doing something that, you know, for a fact isn’t going to work. So it feels like what you’ve managed to build in your own work and in hiring the people that you hire is a good bank of people who you actually fundamentally trust that basically know what they’re doing.

[00:08:52] Scott Williams – KUGU Home: Yeah, and they’re better at it than me, right? I’ll give you an example, right? I’m in Berlin and there’s a guy that I’ve worked with for the last four years — product designer — and he’s one of the best people I’ve ever worked with. We also run this kind of organic kind of radical candour thing where there’s just no bullshit. So we’re constantly arguing. There’s constant tension between us, but we really like each other. And his work is astounding. It’s absolutely always on the money. And so I think having someone who can take my ideas, my approach, come back, give it the depth and detail, and then us play around with it and stretch it and pull it is a prerequisite, I think. And also I think it’s… I think it’s about your personality type and your philosophy in life as well. Because I think you shouldn’t be fearful of going into a business and saying; this is shit. Because it’s not ER, you know what I mean? Like what’s gonna happen? I mean, no one’s gonna die. You know what I mean? You haven’t got your hand in someone’s brain. You’re just going into a very frail set of processes and people, and they’re trying to do something and invariably most businesses are pretty average. The whole point of consultancy is that every day you’re invited to sit down and, you know, and drink the cultural Kool-Aid, and it’s like, no, I’m not interested in that. Like, I’m not interested. I’m not interested in this bullshit. I’m interested in like, you’re spending X in this department, or, you know, you’re spending this at a call centre, or, and because your website doesn’t work, or do you really know your customers, and do you understand how they feel when they use this thing or whatever those things are? Yeah, I mean, you know me, I will go into any organisation and if I see something that’s wrong, I will just say. And that is not always a good idea, but invariably that’s the end game. So the quicker I can take you to the end game, the quicker we can fix it, and it’s going to cost you less. And I think that’s the other thing. It’s like, consultancy seems to be this kind of like, Oh, it’s really, really expensive. And it’s like, if you don’t understand the value and you don’t understand your own value, then it probably is. You know? So I think for me, it’s that integrity thing in myself, which is if you’re going to come in and help, help. But it’s that, you know, if someone’s on a sinking ship, don’t jump on the ship, throw them a, throw them a lifeline, you know, and do it quickly. That’s my ethos.

[00:11:26] Phil Lewis: Well, it’s the, it’s expensive, but compared to what dynamic, isn’t it? I mean, that’s the thing that, you know, sort of strikes me. Consultants, good ones anyway, aren’t about to get into the pity pit with clients. They’re not about to, you know… what they’re actually there to do is the hard yards of getting the actual problem fixed. And I think there’s a real kindness in that sometimes, and what I liked about what you were just saying, was that there’s a kindness in being able to go; I’m not going to be distracted by this stuff. What I am going to do instead is just get into it with you and then we’ll work out what the answer is and all the other stuff, all the noise, all the clatter that goes on in any organisation, we can ignore that in the interest of what you were talking about earlier on, which is speed and impact. So I think, I think there’s something in all that about good consulting as well, you know.

[00:12:20] Scott Williams – KUGU Home: It is about being aggressively kind.

[00:12:24] Phil Lewis: Aggressively. Well, we’ll reflect on what aggressively kind means, I guess. If you had one piece of advice as we close out, if you had one piece of advice for anybody who has either been in consulting for a while, or is thinking about getting into consulting, what would it be?

[00:12:45] Scott Williams – KUGU Home: Make sure you’re ready. And what I mean by that is the emotional rollercoaster of going into a business and helping it and fixing it or whatever you’re trying to do, invariably it is 50% counselling, 50% consultancy. So make sure that you are robust enough and have a good level of self awareness to cope with that. Because invariably what will happen is, as it gets darkest before the dawn, people will try and make your life hell. They won’t be doing it on purpose, but if you’re doing a really good job in trying to change something or fix something, there’ll be parts of the business that will absolutely do whatever it can to stop you doing it. Make sure you’re ready for that, because that’s not fun. So make sure you’re, like, mentally, physically, you’re up for that challenge.

[00:13:42] Phil Lewis: A huge thanks there to Scott. My name is Phil Lewis. This is The Consultancy Business Podcast. We’re here to help you build the consultancy nobody else can. This first episode is all about what clients really want from their relationships with independent consultants. Our second guest is a senior leader whose capabilities I’ve admired for years. She works for a major household name in the UK, one whose industry demands the very highest standards. And I thought we’d start this one with some quickfire questions.

[00:14:19] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: My name is Sara Batchelor. I am Head of Media Relations at Nationwide Building Society. I’ve been there for just over eight years now, and prior to that, I’ve spent my career, so near 20 years, in consultancy. So I have worked on both sides of the fence, both in agency, consultancy, and in big business as well.

[00:14:50] Phil Lewis: Sara, thank you for joining us.

[00:14:51] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Hi, Phil.

[00:14:52] Phil Lewis: What’s the first word that springs to mind when I say the word consultancy?

[00:14:57] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Advice.

[00:14:58] Phil Lewis: How would you summarise your career in three words?

[00:15:03] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Varied, challenging, and rewarding.

[00:15:08] Phil Lewis: What is the most impactful thing, or a genuinely impactful thing, that a consultant ever said to you?

[00:15:17] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Can we be honest with each other?

[00:15:20] Phil Lewis: Ooh. Right, so. I want to start there if that’s okay. So can we be honest with each other? Don’t have to get into specifics on this but just give us the background on that one. How did that conversation come about?

[00:15:35] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: So I think this is the absolute bedrock of a really fruitful and rewarding client consultant relationship is being… having a contract with each other to be brutally honest with each other. Because I think there is a sometimes a danger that consultants can fall into the trap of just agreeing with everything you say and slightly tentative of actually telling the brutal truth, which is, as a client, what you really want and the most valuable thing. So I was working on a piece of work and it was going okay, but it needed somebody to just take stock and to say… sit back and say; are we actually doing the right thing here? And that’s how that came about. And it was probably the most impactful thing that could have happened at that moment in time. But reflecting on it, what it meant for the relationship going forward. So it is about having that agreement that even if it is uncomfortable at times, being brutally honest and having those difficult conversations with each other is absolutely vital for both parties.

[00:17:05] Phil Lewis: I’m always really interested in; what is it that, you know, clients look for in their consulting partners and in their consulting relationships? And what you just pointed the direction of is well, in your phrase, brutal honesty. You spent time in consultancy before you moved into a client side role. I am wondering if your experience was that all clients wanted and valued brutal honesty. Because I certainly find in our work that appetites for levels of honesty can vary, and also the way that people want to receive input vary as well. So what I mean by that is sometimes a bit of spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down. But I have also met clients over the years, and I know some consulting friends and colleagues have also met clients over the years, where brutal honesty has been kind of requested, but not really wanted.

[00:18:08] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Yeah, I think there are degrees of brutal honesty, and the way that you provide it and deliver it is absolutely key to that. And in any good relationship, you have to flex your approach depending on who you’re dealing with, personalities, etc. I think the really important thing, if you’re a consultant giving an honest opinion that might not be wholly well received, that there is a suggestion, an idea, a recommendation of a different approach or a different path with actionable ideas. It’s not just a case of putting the brakes on anything. It is offering something else that can be considered. And I think that then gets you into a different conversation.

[00:19:15] Phil Lewis: Yes, it’s the old don’t just come up with problems thing, isn’t it? I mean, I mean, it’s brutally honest, but not necessarily helpful to go; ‘this is really broken’. Whereas ‘this is really broken, but here’s some steps you might take to fix it’, you know, that seems reasonable. And it feels to me like there’s something about how brutal honesty has to be grounded in expertise and it has to be grounded in objectivity. Because if you haven’t got those two things, you know, if there isn’t that kind of fresh view and there isn’t a good grounding in knowledge and experience and everything else, well, brutal honesty can be there, but it’s not necessarily going to be helpfully pointed, or it’s not necessarily going to be accurate or reliable. If you take sort of facets like that, you know, you talk about brutal honesty, you talk about expertise, you talk about objectivity. I think most consultants and most consultancies would hold themselves out as offering that in some way, shape or form, whether accurately or not. But I guess that’s the heart of my question, which is, you’ve obviously been looking at consultants and consultancies for years, both in your previous roles and also in the role that you do now, and I’m just finding myself wondering how you appraise whether or not you actually want to work with somebody. How do you judge from whatever initial interactions, whether or not they are capable of bringing that brutal honesty you were talking about, and also whether you… that’s the kind of interaction that you would want. How do you, what kind of qualities or what kind of, you know, triggers or associations or whatever do you look for in consultancies? How do you praise them?

[00:20:58] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Yeah, it’s a really good question and I think… so I would look for individuals rather than consultancies and firms. It’s easy to go after big names, established organisations, which will come with good reputation. But what you want is to identify specific individuals who have the right kind of expertise, who are the right personalities, to be able to to give you what you need. And at the end of the day, you have to get on with them. You have to work with them. So you need that connection with them. So that would be the first thing is; do your research to find out who are the individuals that come recommended, have the right experience, and that you feel that you can work with. And then aside from the honesty bit, which we’ve spoken about, what I’d be looking for is… You know, most consultants in a particular field will have a similar perspective, similar knowledge, and arguably experience. But what you want is the ability for them to be able to take your challenge, and their knowledge, and to be able to apply it. So just as an example, a consultant might spot something in the marketplace that a competitor is doing, but what’s the relevance to me, to my business, and the implications. And what you want in a consultant is somebody who can take all of that knowledge and experience, combine it with challenge that you’re putting to them, and come up with some ideas and solutions.

[00:23:15] Phil Lewis: So there’s two things in that, isn’t there? There is something about really generative chemistry. So when you’re sat with somebody, do you feel as though you can get somewhere together that you couldn’t get individually. And the second thing, if I’m hearing you correctly, is something about; is a consultant able to make fast, relevant, and sometimes lateral connections that are immediately and tangibly beneficial to you as a client, to your business. So it’s about; is the chemistry good, but also is the ability to take, manipulate, work with information in service of the relationship.

[00:24:03] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Yeah, I think it’s absolutely key. At the end of the day, we work off relationships, don’t we? And so that relationship has to work. And I think there, if it does, the honesty bit and being really frank with each other will come more naturally and just be much easier. You have to find people who you can trust, that you get on with, and that you value, and believe what they say, and ultimately you have to like them as well. I think that’s really important.

[00:24:38] Phil Lewis: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think if you like the people you work with, I think you do better work. Usually because I actually think liking is a natural consequence of good chemistry anyway, do you know what I mean? Like if the chemistry’s there, then in general there’s some basis to kind of get on. And also all good working relationships are in some sense underpinned by good alignment around values as well, like, you have to care about some of the same stuff to be able to work with somebody. And it feels like all of those things probably mean you’re more likely than not to actually like those individuals. But I agree with you, I think if you work with people you like your energy is generally higher and you generally do better work. One of the things that we’re doing with The Consultancy Business Sara is with talking to independent consultants around a very simple concept, which is: build the consultancy that nobody else can. So the idea is: you are a unique human being who’s had a unique career, unique life experience, you’ve probably got unique neurology, genetic. We have probably got unique neurology. You’ve got unique neurology perspective, genetics, whatever. You are an irreplaceable human being, if that makes sense. And so if you bring that sort of unique perspective together with your career experience and your life experience and you allow that to shine fully then you’re actually in the end going to be able to attract and work well with the clients that are best suited to who you are and your experience and everything else. So the idea is, what we don’t want to create is loads of cookie cutter consultancies. We actually want to create consultancies that are as unique and brilliant and individual as the people that founded them, if that makes sense. You mentioned earlier on about the idea of wanting to avoid the big name consultancies and everything else. And I suppose one of the things that really interests me is; you have organisations that can be very risk averse. They like to work with other businesses that they know and trust. They like to work with one of the reasons why they like to work with big name consultants and consultancies is because those brand names often confer a degree of trust and everything else. And so I suppose the interesting challenge for a lot of us in independent consultancy is: how do you engage with organisations that, on the one hand, sometimes need new and unique perspectives and generative chemistry and all the other stuff we’ve been talking about, but on the other hand, they’ve often been burned by consultants? And they’re innately quite… can be quite risk averse and not necessarily always wanting to embrace new things. So it’s like, how do you as an independent consultant sell something new to a client when sometimes client organisations can feel that new is the last thing that they’re in the market for because they want to stick with what they know and trust.

[00:27:45] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Yeah, that’s an interesting one. So I think there’s huge value that you can get, depending on what you’re looking at, from a large consultancy. I think you need to be clear who the individuals are within that organisation, who you would want to work with and who you trust. So I have worked for large consultancies and I spent some time in a very small one as well, so I can completely get this challenge. I think once the door has been opened a little bit for you, the way that you can fully open that door and have an engaging conversation is really being clear about: why does this organisation, why does this potential client need my help? What is the problem that they are trying to solve, and how can I help them? And being really clear on what the challenge is and how you can help. I think it will just get to the nub of the issue, really quickly. And that will help build trust and nurture the relationship. But I think what smaller consultancies and individuals can bring is agility, and just a slightly different way of thinking. I think being really clear on the problem statement is absolutely critical.

[00:29:27] Phil Lewis: I think that’s spot on, because I think what happens a lot of the time, partly by virtue of enthusiasm and partly by a desire to close a sale, is that consultants can leap to solutions mode and just start trying to get into scopes of work. ‘Here’s the answer, here’s what we can deliver’. But actually the time to articulate, examine, and then actually sit with the problem with the client is often overlooked in that process. And I think it’s absolutely right to go: have we actually really nailed the heart of the issue? I mean, certainly in my own practices, it’s actually the majority of cases that clients come to you with problems that actually aren’t necessarily the problems that really need solving. So to your point about problem statements, it’s like, a lot of the time and the energy ends up going into — let’s be really clear on what we’re trying to achieve here. And what I hear in what you’re saying, Sara, is the idea that perhaps doing that, spending time with the problem, making sure that articulation of the problem is really clear, builds trust in the early stages of a relationship.

[00:30:46] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Yes, exactly. And it’s the listening, isn’t it? As part of the pitch process. You have to quickly come to some recommendations and ideas and potential solutions, but that in itself can be quite dangerous without having spent some time listening, understanding, and really understanding the wider business as well. A consultant can only do the job properly if there’s an understanding of the broader business and, you know, the vision, the journey that you’re going on and what part are you playing as part of that. So, whilst there may be a brief and a very specific ask, that context piece is really vital.

[00:31:39] Phil Lewis: Yes, I think that’s absolutely right. And I think your point was really well made earlier on about large and small consultancies. I mean, for what it’s worth, I don’t see anything that a consultancy of the size of consultancies that I run in any respect competes with any of the big consultancies. I actually think the likes of your big four, your bigger consultancies do incredibly good work. In some cases that is… a smaller consultancy just can’t do at the same level of scale. And possibly not the same level of specialism. I also happen to believe, to your point about agility, there are certain things that smaller consultancies and independent consultants can help clients accomplish that the big ones can’t. So I think it’s horses for courses. But I loved what you said about the idea that almost irrespective of scale, the relationship that needs forming is the relationship between the human beings at the heart of the work. Not this brand and this brand or this business entity and this business entity. And that feels intuitively true to me, because certainly my line of work I’ve found over years, this is literally the time that you spend in rooms with people solving problems that makes the difference, which is probably the ultimate statement of the obvious. But I think it’s easy to overlook that on the altar of marketing and branding and all that sort of stuff. I’m interested to understand if you have any specific bugbears with consultants in general over the course of your storied career. Has there been anything that you’ve observed as a behaviour in consultants that you think: I wish you’d just stop that?

[00:33:13] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Yeah, a couple come to mind. So the pitch process is always an interesting one, having been on it from both sides. From a client side, having people turn up at the pitch, normally quite senior ones who commit their time or say they will commit their time to the client. But then once they’ve secured it, you know, you see very little of them. That is a particular bugbear. To be fair, that doesn’t happen often, but I have seen it in the past. And when people point out problems without trying to identify a solution or an idea that might address that problem. I think it’s very easy for us to highlight risks and issues, but where the value really comes is: okay, what are we going to do about it and how can we address it? And I think for a consultant, that’s the sweet spot. And that’s what we’re, as clients, are really really after.

[00:34:31] Phil Lewis: I think it’s also about, it’s back to the point we were talking about earlier on and generative chemistry, isn’t it? If you’re coming to the table with answers, those answers don’t necessarily need to be completely on the money, as it were, but what they need to be is a really useful contribution that helps those around the table — client group, consulting group, whatever — get somewhere that otherwise couldn’t have been got. And that seems to me to be really, really important. And I think, you know, your point again is well made. It’s like there’s too many consultants out there that think their job is to tell clients that things are broken. And by the way, I think it comes from poor sales training, at least some of it, which basically says you’ve got to be pointing out problems to clients before they’ll buy your services. And it’s like, well, my experience of people is they know they’ve got problems. They may not always accurately diagnose those problems, but they know they’ve got problems, to your point. What they need is help getting to the answers, and getting there as quickly and as effectively as possible. One final question for you, Sara. If you were to wrap your career into a single piece of advice for an independent consultant, what would it be?

[00:35:43] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Okay, so there’s, you asked for a single one, I’m going to give you two, if I’m allowed. So the first one would be going back to the honesty point. So find a way to speak the truth and speak your mind. Because that’s where the value will come for a client. And the second one is: just be curious, ask as many questions as is needed for you to fully get to grips, understand. And don’t be afraid to ask the stupid questions, particularly if it’s in a sector, a business that you’re not familiar with. Because I think sometimes there’s assumed knowledge when, where there’s not. So I think those would be the two bits of advice.

[00:36:42] Phil Lewis: I love those. I particularly like the sort of buy one, get one free spirit of your answer to that question as well, which, you know, I hope we see more of in this podcast as it develops. But, but no, I mean, I, again, you know, I remember an example of, we were in a meeting, myself and, um, my business partner, and we were in a meeting and, you know, we often ask, well, this has happened more than once, actually, you know, clients have gone: right, we need your help in embedding this mission or this strategy or whatever it is. And, you know, we go, right, who round this table of senior leaders can articulate the strategic objectives that we’re here to talk about how you’re going to deliver, you know. And, and the number of times that you find people aren’t clear, or aren’t on the same page, and it’s such an obvious question, which, you know, it’s a sort of stupid question in a sense, isn’t it, which is, can you just play back to me the brief that you’ve already given me but it actually ultimately can reveal, often, a lack of alignment or a lack of shared knowledge and understanding or whatever it is that otherwise wouldn’t actually have come forth necessarily directly. And then you can do some work on that as is necessary. So I think I think being curious, challenging assumptions, all those sorts of things is incredibly helpful. What I love about this conversation is, you know, we’ve been talking about so many qualities like, you know, brutal honesty, talking about, getting curious, talking about building personal relationships, talking about how you start to build trust in the early part of relationships, all that sort of stuff. And all I hear in all of that is: there is huge opportunity for independent consultants to do all sorts of work with clients. We’ve just got to continue to learn how best to engage in order to be able to make good on those sorts of promises. And I think what you’ve shared with us today is some incredibly helpful pointers in that regard. So thank you very much for making the time to talk to us.

[00:38:40] Sara Batchelor – Nationwide: Thank you for having me, Phil. It’s been, it’s been great.

[00:38:45] Phil Lewis: Huge thanks to Sara and thanks also to Scott, who we heard from earlier on. There’s a lot to reflect on in those two conversations. Here are my main takeaways. The first is confidence, because you heard clearly from both Scott and Sara that their companies are looking to work with small and distinctive independent consultancies. For businesses like ours, that’s a big tick. But there are some conditions to keep in mind if you’re going to make the client consultant relationship work. One is brutal honesty. You need to be prepared to say what you think you need to say, however uncomfortable it might feel to have that conversation. The second is cultural sensitivity. Going into a workplace as a consultant requires you to understand and take account of politics and internal dynamics, without getting drawn into them. Yep, being brutally honest just got a whole load more challenging. The next take out from this episode is this: be specific. Chase down the real problem your client is facing, and keep chasing it down, chasing it down, chasing it down, until you’ve got it nailed. This builds trust, and can demonstrate precisely what your value and expertise can bring to the client. And one last one. Demonstrating industry isn’t the same thing as doing good work. Don’t look for what Scott called the thud moment, as the massive report nobody will read hits the desk. Instead, seek to offer tangible, positive solutions for how to fix the problems you encounter. And have faith that the quality of your thinking will shine through, even if the report hits the desk with a flutter, not a bang. Brutal honesty. Cultural sensitivity. Specific problems. And real answers. I’m sure we’ll come back to all these in future episodes, and in our conversations in The Consultancy Business community. For now, I hope that’s been useful. See you soon.

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